Curse

Theos · Mar 30, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

I was aware of Anets blatant miswordings, but I thought something like this would be a bit too important to blunder. Oh well, thank you for informing me Angel.

Hella Good · Mar 30, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

I was aware of Anets blatant miswordings, but I thought something like this would be a bit too important to blunder. Oh well, thank you for informing me Angel.

The mere fact that they are still changing skill descriptions to reflect what skills actually do, AND the mere fact that there is still skills (Dark Fury comes to mind) that are wrongly worded, should tell you that descriptions are not one of the strengths of Anet.

By the way, the more we dig into this issue the more illogical it becomes, so unless an official comes here and explains what the supposed strategic value of this move is, we can just keep rambling and still won't get anywhere. At least we (roughly) know which skills got duped, and have some (vague) suggestions as to why some of the duping might've occured. Still doesn't explain why certain frequently used and highly efficient skills got duped.

Dragonblood · Mar 30, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

It's not 300 skills for all professions mate.

It's 75 for the new ones (Assasin and Ritualist) and 25 added ones for the originals.

so (2 x 75) + (6 x 25) = 300

That's right and if anyone want to check those numders out check GuildWiki. Just click Guild Wars Factions, then srcoll down to New Skills, and click on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Still doesn't explain why certain frequently used and highly efficient skills got duped.

Yes it does explain why certain duplicates, because they(Anet) wanted players that only own Factions to have them. Over & over again, by other players here, and also here's some info from Gaile Gray (click here, then go to page 2).

So can we let this dead horse die.

Xpl0iter · Mar 30, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Not sure if signed or not, but lets just put it this way. From a programmer's point of view, one can allow certain skills to be given to new core players of Chapter 2. There is not much of an issue with it to keep them available with certain Chapter 1 skills. I never saw a point of having 2 copied skills in same skill set beside making few professions stronger. what you guys are not noticing is, While these Faction characters have been given these new Skills cause they are suppose to be pushed up when they buy a Stand alone chapter, they have a major disadvantage Still in comparison to those who have both chapters. cause one with both chapters HAVE both skills in their set. In easy words:
1) Provided Stand alone chapter players with 1 skill means provided Both chapter holders with 2 Skills. Result: More power
2) Provided Stand alone chapter with certain skill Not duped, People with that skill still have more power.

Are you guys ripped? or stupid enough not to realize that you have more power over faction players, Regardless... ?

I noticed, for ELe class, i saw couple of baby searing skills, and copied searing heat. why not copied fireballs? i thought i once mentioned that fireball is one of the most used and basic good skill that a fire mage can keep in a skill set. I do not see why people would keep searing heat, or copied searing heat as a fire mage for pve. If i recall correctly, searing heat scatters foes, and people hate that, right?

Nothing is a Crying baby issue, people do have some point when they spoke of 2 skills being duped.
All the people who said Dupe skills are good, basically have a core professions which they love to play with, and found those skills giving them edge over other professions with certain combos. Do i want 2 crystal waves? sure, they gimme hell of a damage powers. Do i need to have a cheap way to damage? seems like Anet is supporting certain idiots to work arround brainy matter to output damage. This is not how people are suppose to be given power to dish some damage out.
Call me a whiner or what ever, but prove me wrong.

/Signed

Tric · Mar 30, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Who told you that?

I'm pretty sure I read it at the official site. I definitely remember the number 75 as the number of new skills for each core class.

And still, it would be better to spend time making new skills than making new pics for copies of the old skills. It's really not necessary, why not just bring the old skills to factions?

This is a mistake and a waste of time.

And anyway, no need to flame me for not knowing, it's not like I got the time to read through the entire huge thread before replying (like most others, I'd bet). I replied to the first post in the thread.

yazaga · Mar 30, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Well I have one point against those duplicating skills. You have to think about new player who will be buying Factions without owning Prophecies. Iwagine the sheer number of skills they would have to learn. For example a mesmer will have to learn which skills are skills and which skills are spells in order to know which ones he can interupt. And he has to know them by just glancing at their icons and to make split second decisions. Adding to that is the fact that those Factions only mesmers wont have access to some skills and will have to visit forums like this or download external programs just to examine them. As you can see it is a fairly steep learning curve for people who wanna be competitive with Factions only. Why make it harder for them by adding all those duplicating skills. And i agree that the skills that were used are not so useful. Inspired enchant ??? A reasonable suggestion will be to have the same skills but to move them into a different line. Like the duplicates of inspired enchant and inspired hex being moved to the illision line. That woul give some energy managment to a pure illusion mesmer and will stir things a bit.

plasmasword · Mar 30, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

I like the idea of having 2 of a few skills. I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but having 2 of the same skills in your skill bar DOES have a disadvantage...you only have 7 total skills instead of 8. With that in mind, I think doubles of some skills is a good idea.

/not signed

D Fault · Mar 30, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

I don't know if this has been said before, but maybe some of the duplicates, ones that just don't make sense, were made into a Factions skill, because they wanted Factions-only users to have it, but didn't want it in the core skills because they didn't want it in future expansions. I think makes some sense...

If they wanted people with Factions to have access to the skill, they could have just given them access to the skill. The skill doesn't need to be added to the core set either.

So basically the only reasons to add duplicate skills is to give people with both Prophecies and Factions the option of using one skill twice, or making it look like there are more skills.

The whole thing seems to be rather pointless IMO.

Snowman · Mar 30, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

Er... just count them yourself? There is a list of skills both here and on Wiki. If you see 30 per profession instead of the announced 25... you kind of figure there is 5 extra... It's not a matter of personal opinion, it's all over the place for everyone to see.

But where does it say that these dupe's will be implemented in the final game, and not just for the FPE?

Dont you think its odd that they have failed to mention that there will be 25 new skills for existing proffesion plus 5 duplicated ones?...

Normally ANET scream and dance and praise their own genius whenever they give you stuff for free, or implement anything new, this time they havnt...why? (ponders this with deep suspicion)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

And it has nothing to do with getting free cookies or whatever you wanna call it, it has to do with questioning it's logic, balance implications, and practicality. That's why we got to discussing the actual skills to see if the move really might do what Anet claims it will or no.

Its called an illustration, it maybe a bit crude for some of the deep thinking people here.

After reading everyone arguments and having thought about this alot, the "logic, balance, implications, and practicality" as you call it... without going into any deep reasoning and writing pages and pages of opinionated crap that I get sick of reading on these forums...my final conclusion is...

BONUS COOKIES! xD

[not signed]

(if indeed they will be implemented in the final game)

Weezer_Blue · Mar 30, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Confirmed by Gaile on several occasions. Besides, they all sound like their dupes... What else could Tenai's Healing Circle be?

Laibeus Lord · Mar 30, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

sorry /notsigned

the others already said my reasons.

Dragonblood · Mar 30, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

Not sure if signed or not, but lets just put it this way. From a programmer's point of view, one can allow certain skills to be given to new core players of Chapter 2. There is not much of an issue with it to keep them available with certain Chapter 1 skills. I never saw a point of having 2 copied skills in same skill set beside making few professions stronger. what you guys are not noticing is, While these Faction characters have been given these new Skills cause they are suppose to be pushed up when they buy a Stand alone chapter, they have a major disadvantage Still in comparison to those who have both chapters. cause one with both chapters HAVE both skills in their set. In easy words:
1) Provided Stand alone chapter players with 1 skill means provided Both chapter holders with 2 Skills. Result: More power
2) Provided Stand alone chapter with certain skill Not duped, People with that skill still have more power.

Are you guys ripped? or stupid enough not to realize that you have more power over faction players, Regardless... ?

Here's a reply by me from page 6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonblood

Do you not think that by the time Faction comes out, that Anet may not allow you the put both "clone/duplicate" skills your skillbar? Why...because that would be classed as spamming a skill/spell. Just because FPE they allowed it doesn't mean that when Faction comes out they will allow it.

It will only take a update/patch to fix that problem.

So who's ripped or stupid enough not to realize that, the problem can be fix?

So can we let this dead horse die. Why you may ask? Alot of replies are starting to become duplicates. And that's from alot of people.

Hella Good · Mar 30, 2006, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Seriously... the whole "you gotta think bout Factions only players" thing is absurd. It's not even a valid arguement!!! What about Factions only players??? Use an ambiguous skill doubling mechanism to give 'em what 30 skills they supposedly couldn't have had otherwise? Yea... rite...

If there is other much more logical ways to give those skills to those players (including but not limited to simply giving them the skills as a bonus), then why do the doubling???

Which brings us to 3-4 pages ago and the fact that the only somewhat valid reason for this is: strategic depth. Period. Has nothing to do with giving skills to Factions only players! No one says don't give the skills to those players! It's the way they did it that is under question. Heh... for all I care... give em all Prophecies skills... I really couldn't care less about it. It's the method that is under question.

So... unless you plan on giving a reason why Faction only players should get the skills USING THE DOUBLES METHOD (not anything else), I clearly don't see a point in argumentation.

And Dragonblood... this is how Anet plans to release Factions. It has been confirmed... we are not discussing speculations here. It was confirmed by Anet that the dupes are there to stay for strategic depth.

Xpl0iter · Mar 30, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonBlood said

Plus I got a feeling that when ch.3 comes out(sometime this fall/winter), that we may not see "clone/duplicate" . Why you may ask....well think of it this way. Anet will know that 50% of the gamers/players will own both GW: Prophecies & Faction, an 50% will own Faction itself. That mean's that Anet may not make "clone/duplicate". But if they do, that be then just be silly. And that I hope by ch.3 they don't "clone/duplicate".

If Anet had mentioned this at any point the the duplicated skill will only be allowed to Faction Core players, and not the prophecies, it would be all fine by Me. My issue is, the claim that you have made above, stays a Claim. Not sure how strong it is, and how weak could it possibily be, but, it is just a feeling as you have mentioned above. I really hope that you are right by what you have said being honest...
There are many problems that *Can* be fixed, but are not really fixed. I will not mention the problems in this thread since that has already been done in other threads and forums. For now, as to why people who are against the dupes won't be considered "ripped" by me, i have given my reasons above in previous posts. I had mentioned that before too, people could have been allowed the access to certain skills, need not to dupe them If they had purchased Faction only, just like Anet could easy work arround the character Slots, that is:
1) If you owned just Faction, you would have 4 slots available.
2) If you purchased both chapters, you will have 6 slots, not 8.
In easy words, ANET can easily over come the situation by allowing certain skill access to faction only players, without needing to dupe them.
I hope I have made sense to you in this post. As long as ANET has said nothing about the Dupe skills being patched, till then, people are bound to assume that they remain in this game for when the Faction is actually working.

Renegade ++RIP++ · Mar 30, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

dragon, that is however hypothising.

And its only because of these threads and the frequent hitting or flailing of a dead horse that changes like the one proposed in your previous post might be considered.

But for the moment the factual information states that there is a duplication from certain skills. And the point most people are trying to make that did sign this thread is simply that if the skill in question is considered to be so usefull to be warranted as being available for factionusers then in stead of just coipy pasting the skill and changing the name they should either add them to the coreskills or could add a similar skill and change it very slightly in effect. It will still fulfill the same role, and people might even use them 2 times. But this different effect will at least heighten synergies in other builds. In stead of being a simple cheesy duplication that if rendered interrupted doesn't make your build that much less powerfull (if one of your arcane thieveris gets diversionned, you still got the arcane larceny to wreak havoc on your enemies...) So it makes sure that a vital skill in a certain build will be harder to stop then before. In stead of having multiple skills that have the same effect under different circumstances... which would open up more strategies then just fill your bar with x copies... Just like in pve where some of the bosses have silly double skills...

Loviatar · Mar 30, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

But where does it say that these dupe's will be implemented in the final game, and not just for the FPE?

)

will you accept this as proof?

Quote:

So yes, you have all your new skills.
Yes, you have duplicates.
And yes, this is a good thing.

I'm really glad that someone asked, because this tidbit about our plans with this skill situation flew past me and I really thought maybe we had placeholders. Now I know it's intended for you to be able to use multiples of a select few, as another strategic element of the game.
__________________
Gaile Gray
Community Relations Manager
ArenaNet

zoozoc · Mar 30, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

why not have dublicates? They still have 300 new skills. Unless there is a big balance issue, im all for having doubles.

Dragonblood · Mar 30, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Hella Good, Xpl0iter, & Renegade ++RIP++. All three of you have good points. And I'm not going to tear they down.

Yes they are duplicate, that part I do argee on. And yes to they can be used for strategic reasons. But I'm going to wait say for about a week after Factions comes out. That way I and maybe otheres here can see how big of an effect this problem will become.

Meaning that I'll check out some PvP matches & test some of the dups out myself, just to see how the strategic area of this comes into play(for good and bad). And who know's maybe I'm change me mind on this.

Maybe by that time Anet will know that they made a big mistake. Again this part is just a feeling.

Mordakai · Mar 30, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Normally ANET scream and dance and praise their own genius whenever they give you stuff for free, or implement anything new, this time they havnt...why? (ponders this with deep suspicion)

Uh, pretty simple. "Duplicate skills" isn't much of a selling point.

(Not saying they're useless, just saying no one on the fence of buying Factions and is going to be swayed by the idea of duplicate skills).

Loviatar · Mar 30, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonblood

Maybe by that time Anet will know that they made a big mistake. Again this part is just a feeling.

dont forget that there are many new skills added and that a dupe skill will force you to leave a possibly better one behind.

also none of the dupes has been shown to be an overpowered monster.

and last but not least there is the nerf or in this case maybe the removal and replacement of a problem skill.

Anet seems to work to keep a reasonable balance going